InsaneJournal

Tweak says, "i'll be back"

auctasinistra (auctasinistra) wrote,
@ 2009-08-07 10:08:00

Current mood:

Irked, yet amused

Because I want to vent ...
... and venting at the site of the wank is really a waste of time ...

Boy do I wish people would learn what the fuck plagiarism is before they mount their witch hunts.

It's beyond comprehension to me that Cassie Claire was defended by anyone at the same time that people think the same plotline, premise, or setting, or the use of a similar phrase, is plagiarism. Direct lifting of a complete work, or substantial portions of the work - verbatim, people (look it up) - while claiming credit for creating it - that is plagiarism. This "it seemed sorta similar, and no one has ever had the ideas I've had ever so I have the copyright" bullshit is just egotism and ignorance.

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	slashpine 2009-08-07 05:28 pm UTC (link)
	Agree. And what you mention -- egotism and ignorance -- is precisely the virulent combination that causes it. Of course, fangirls don't have an exclusive on being both self-centred and ignorant. They just do it so well, in that passive-aggressive OOOH BUT IMA ARTIST way. Now, dish! Where, what, is the wank? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	auctasinistra 2009-08-07 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	Fandom Wank, of course: http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1216820.html It's a rare instance where the accusers give examples of what they're confident is theft, like: I wrote: "Where's the gun, asshole?" and that darned playjerist wrote "Wait a minute - where's that gun?" See? We both asked where the gun was! PLAYJERIZM! (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	sinick 2009-08-07 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	Or possibly PLAGUE-O-JISM, which given that it's Fandom Wank, is rather apt. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	slashpine 2009-08-07 10:43 pm UTC (link)
	Or maybe PLAYER-JIZM, since FW is where fen go to spew wildly hoping some might stick. (Reply to this) (Parent)

slashpine
2009-08-07 10:41 pm UTC (link)

Snort. If it's on FW, for me, that's assurance of a 1% probability of having a sound point and 99% likely that it will be misread and misrepresented in FW's perpetual ongoing drama of LOOKIT ME INSULT PPL IM SO KEWL. There are always a very tiny minority of brighter fans who attempt to apply intelligence and decency (i.e., follow the purported FW mission) but the rest is snobbery mobbery.

But yeah, what you say. Similarity, especially for such obvious reasons as standard plot and grammar (there aren't many different ways to ask where the bathroom is) is hardly plagiarism.

Or, PLAYJERIZM. I love that. It shd always be written like that in this kind of wank!

Fandom: reinventing the wheel on a ~~daily~~ hourly basis. Wouldn't it be loverly if most fans - oh hell, even if a third of them - learnt grammar and logic *before* coming online? These mass learning-through-error exercises are a good reminder of why all cultures prefer that kids learn from adults who are empowered to say, "Sit DOWN, Mr. Potter, be QUIET, listen and take notes, and if you still have questions see me AFTER class."

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	auctasinistra 2009-08-08 04:03 am UTC (link)
	It's really true that the less likely the thing is to really be plagiarism, the more fuss, and the less likely the word is to be spelled correctly. And for all the kids who felt like everything adults taught them was boring and wasn't sinking in, we oldsters are here to say "That was us, too. And it does sink in. You just don't realize it 'til later." :-) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

slashpine
2009-08-08 04:51 am UTC (link)

You know, after the last few years of being back in academe, as an instructor, including teaching freshmen, I think more than half the reason "plagiarism" is lobbed like hate speech but with no real understanding of its meaning is that teachers are the ones who've exaggerated its EVOL but not seriously taught its content.

Academia is rife with abuse of power and authority, including a myriad clever ways to cheat. I see faculty, staff and administrators (and hear about the K-12 system being about the same) cheat on travel and per diems, throw meals for themselves under the guise of lunch and breakfast meetings, puff up their salaries in every conceivable way and never question whether they're actually giving students and the public something of value (not always, and not often entirely). In publications, I see continual instances of fraud and deceit in science and medical publishing (like the recent revelation in the NYT of drug companies that pay contractors fees upwards of $25K to write articles finding that their drugs are the best treatment, then pay university researchers to sign their names to them and get them published). In my graduate work I recently discovered that some PhD dissertations are not, in fact, the original monograph-length work of the student receiving the diploma, but contain chapters co-authored -often substantially- by the student's professors. Gee, if I wrote part of an undergraduate's paper, that would be called cheating, right?

And how about those students and faculty who pay for editorial help? Or recycle the same paragraphs and topic and data over and over into "new" papers? Not to mention the pay-for-play deals given to student athletes, or the classic move of prima donna faculty alpha males putting their name on top of articles and work done by their employees or students, just because they're greedy and they can get away with co-opting other people's work.

There are so many ways that academic writers don't produce work entirely on their own, entirely through their own effort. Like ghost writers in the RW -- actually, I loved it when I was an M.A. working for govt agencies and contractors and they paid me to write and edit reports on which my name never appeared. Since the report content was always skewed by the mandatory biases and assumptions dictated by the agency, at least I wasn't embarrassed to have to pretend I agreed. Nor be linked in print with various jerks whose names went on it only by virtue of their rank, gender, ethnicity, etc. I just had to do the writing and get paid for it. But oh wait! Isn't that academic "dishonesty," when work does not fully and fairly credit all authors, and is distorted by bias, privilege, and power?

But these duckings and dodgings that are *standard* in the real world are never discussed with students. Instead, this artificial and isolated concept of "plagiarism" is introduced as the Ultimate Sin.... as if remixing Wikipedia material (remixing, aka "boilerplating": another widely employed RL writing shortcut I know from both fed and mass media work) is more evil than bullying your subordinates out of any credit at all?

It's just a hunch. I haven't worked it out very far. But the level of confusion in academia about plagiarism despite the fact that students are told about its heinousness over and over and over suggests that the explanations are like fire and brimstone church teachings - huge with horror but lacking in logic. The fact that plagiarism is the #1 Ultimate Evil Thing that students bring up? In *this* world of bullying, power differentials being abused, violence, rape, and racism?? Please. I call "smokescreen." It's a straw argument, a red herring, to puff up this one vague act while omitting all mention of others.

Erm. Just thinkin'.

/rant

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auctasinistra
2009-08-08 03:41 pm UTC (link)

But actually everything you're describing has the same common thread that the false accusations of plagiarism have - the special snowflake, I want the credit and power without having to earn it attitude that is, despite what old farts like me want to say, NOT new with this generation, but has certainly gotten worse with each generation. When people can really say "No I didn't do all the work. That would have been hard. No, I didn't credit those who did do the work for me. Why should I do that? I typed it up/compiled it/downloaded it." And they MEAN it. They're bewildered that stealing other people's work or credit could possibly be wrong - because they want to! They needed it! How can they get money and power in this world otherwise? That, to me, is the scary part - they really do NOT get it. There is no sense of right or wrong on a really fundamental level (and I'm not sitting here lily white - I've done wrong things, usually quite deliberately and for selfish reasons. But I knew they were wrong, knew why I was doing them, and took whatever lumps came [and I don't mean plagiarism or embezzlement or things like that; I mean small personal-level wrongs]). Most of my generation knows damn well when they're doing wrong, even if they deny it for selfish ends - even small children know when they're doing wrong and they instinctively lie to protect themselves. That's human. But this level of not even comprehending that it's wrong to steal other people's work because you want the credit and are too lazy to produce work of your own ...

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slashpine
2009-08-08 08:26 pm UTC (link)

Wow, GOOD POINTS.

I agree that our generation (yeah, you remember me: MfU first cousin! I'm old ... er, "mature") has done these things from a different perspective: not lily-white, but shall we say, a bit more conscience-driven? Or conscience-ridden, as in peeking at your friend's homework knowing full well it is wrong and against the rules and you could get an F for cheating (even a little) and you'd DESERVE it.

Versus this: the special snowflake, I want the credit and power without having to earn it attitude... When people can really say "No I didn't do all the work. That would have been hard. No, I didn't credit those who did do the work for me. Why should I do that? I typed it up/compiled it/downloaded it." And they MEAN it. They're bewildered that stealing other people's work or credit could possibly be wrong - because they want to! They needed it! How can they get money and power in this world otherwise?

Yeah. That's one aspect that continues to confuzzle me too, both in fandom and academe. The idea that one "has to" or "everyone does it" and ultimately, that "I need it, therefore it's RIGHT." Huh, it's really the GRYFFINDOR MORALITY isn't it? I.e., when Harry uses an Unforgivable, it isn't. When the Marauders bully a Slytherin, it was ALL HIS FAULT because he "deserves" it, just because he "exists."

Is this (a) the cult of individuality carried to an unpleasant extreme? The speshul snowflakes who judge everything only by reference to themselves, and consider themselves an exception to everyone else's rules?

Although srsly, that's also simply a phase of childhood/teen moral development, too: the inability to relate to others, see oneself as part of society, and choose to act in ways that advance the collective good even when it is a personal inconvenience. So (b), this may simply be a function of fandom having so many immature people (and yeah, I include here ppl who are physically adults but have failed to learn/accept some basic social skills and norms).

Or is it more related to our current ultra-capitalist society, the ideology of competition you mention where "get money and power" is the one and only goal, and no stupid morality or ethics should get in our way? I have to say, I see a LOT of that too in academe, especially. A lot of students who think that business is not just a major, but the goal of almost any career, and education, community service, etc., are just stupid obstacles or at most, resume labels.

But what I see is also that these students are coming in with that attitude, and they get it not just from rampant consumerism and greed for wealth in the media, movies, music and so forth - but also from their parents. A lot of these lawyer-doctor-manager type parents are sending their kids off to college with an expectation that they will succeed "by any means necessary" and cheating, whining, bullying, harassing their teachers - that's all ok cos the end justifies the means.

What do you think are the causes for this change? B/c I agree there's been a certain change, in the direction of what we see; what you describe.

Now, an HP question: does JKR enable this self-serving, self-justifying attitude by showing that her "special" Gryffindors have Speshul Rulez? By ignoring and ridiculing the other Houses, she suggests that Hufflepuff hard work and kindness is "beneath" one (better to be like Ron and cheat the driving instructor), Ravenclaw (and Hermione's) love of education is to be mocked, and Slytherin differences actively discriminated against.

I'm always interested in "the ethics and morality of HP," but the ethics and morality of *fandom* is even more interesting, I think.

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auctasinistra
2009-08-09 03:41 pm UTC (link)

but also from their parents. A lot of these lawyer-doctor-manager type parents are sending their kids off to college with an expectation that they will succeed "by any means necessary" and cheating, whining, bullying, harassing their teachers - that's all ok cos the end justifies the means.

Yes. I think there's been this gradual shift from an understanding that what benefits the community (being law abiding and "rule" abiding in a general sense) benefits YOU, and therefore there's a good reason to do it, to a sense that benefiting the community is irrelevant to YOU, therefore why do it? It certainly didn't start with this generation or ours, but I think the one before ours started to head in that direction. The general breakdown of community bonds due to more mobility? The worship of such things as money and power (strongly American, though by no means solely American) in which your personal profit is the only important thing and there's no cognitive connection between what's good/bad for the community and what's good/bad for you and your children? That would encompass, perhaps, the loss of the abstract morality (after all, being a "good" person has to profit you, or why do it? It isn't "good" if it doesn't make me richer or more popular, right?). This is off the top of me head without coffee, but I do think it's simply part of a long term cultural shift in how we define "right" and "wrong" - it's moving from "what keeps me and my community healthy and strong in the longer term" to "what I want right now and fuck the rest." Our parents probably thought that about us, their parents about them - "Kids today. They don't care about anything but themselves and what they want."

What we see represented in fandom is a slice of human nature (which I always find fascinating) - it's on a trivial level but it reflects a lack of understanding of what it actually is to be a decent person and the internal value of being "good" when it doesn't seem to obviously or immediately benefit you personally (what's the quote? "Honorable behavior is what you do when no one's looking" or something?)

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	slashpine 2009-08-07 10:48 pm UTC (link)
	... and venting at the site of the wank is really a waste of time ... So true. (Reply to this) (Parent)

torino10154
2009-08-07 08:45 pm UTC (link)

This is sort of a sideways comment to the whole plagiarism or not rant but do you ever read fic that you think was influenced by something you wrote? Do you think the person intentionally copied (not plagiarized *g*) you? Do you think a person can subconsciously do that? I wonder about the influence we all have on each other. But then again some concepts in fandom are just so prevalent it's hard to imagine anyone was the 'first' to write a rentboy!Harry or Severus rescues Harry from the Dursleys, etc. Or if they did, does that mean they got the idea from Star Trek or Buffy or whatever?

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auctasinistra
2009-08-08 03:36 am UTC (link)

I read a story that I felt really strongly echoed a premise and plotline and tone of something I'd written. I figured the author had probably read my story (or perhaps one very similar?) and was inspired to do her own take on the scenario (I've done that). Or that it occurred to her independently, which is entirely possible. It's just silly to assume one is absolutely the only person to come up with a plotline or premise.

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auctasinistra
2009-08-08 04:08 am UTC (link)

Oh, I should clarify. I think it's possible to be unconsciously influenced. Absolutely. I think we all are to varying extents by work that moves us. I also think it's possible to consciously read a fic and go "I'd like to give that premise a go." I've done that a few times and I can't be the only one. None of that is wrong or requires asking permission, since I doubt many people have "invented" a brand-new premise lately. ;-) Then again, I don't feel all that possessive of anything except my actual in fact verbatim stories, so I'm probably going to be the last person to see plagiarism everywhere. :-) It cracks me up, the egos of some fanfic writers. "I invented ... well, EVERYTHING!"

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bk7brokemybrain
2009-08-07 11:26 pm UTC (link)

There is nothing new under the sun. *shakes head*
I have been blissfully ignorant of and untouched by wank, so far.
When I first posted some fic, then read later fic that used some rare words that I had used, I felt briefly indignant, then laughed my ass off. It was nice to be on the side of being-ripped-off-from, even if it was only an idea or word that was taken. At least someone beside my beta had read my work, and remembered a snatch of it, lol.
When I decided to write a Non-Magical AU Snupin, I had just read "Depth of Focus" by westernredcedar(I hope I got the right author there), and kept repeating to myself "Don't rip off 'Depth of Focus'! Don't rip off 'Depth of Focus'!" It would be nice if everyone were aware of the great fics they loved, fanfic and mainstream alike, that shaped them. But it's not always possible.
I'm not sure I understand the reluctance to expose outright real plagiarists. I'd like a chance to see the original fic, and compare it to the plagiarized one. I have seen occasional posts and comments in archives referring to these situations, but never naming names. I don't know who the posters think they are protecting. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If it's not real plagiarism, I'd like to judge it for myself. *shrugs* It's only a matter of pride, no money is being gained or lost here.
And ultimately, in canon, there are only so many plotlines. The trick is to put your unique flavor on it, write what you like, and find an audience who appreciates the same.

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auctasinistra
2009-08-08 04:04 am UTC (link)

I'd like a chance to see the original fic, and compare it to the plagiarized one.

Yes, and that's rare. It's usually sufficient to make a determination when you actually can see the two works. Fandom is its own little world, really, where words mean different things from what they mean in the outside world - where "Hey! She wrote a fic where Snape and Harry take a bath together and conjure magical bubbles and so did I - plagiarism!" is considered valid.

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reddwarfer
2009-08-15 07:15 am UTC (link)

While I agree that this particular wank is utter smeg, and someone was overreacting, I have to point out that plagiarism does go beyond the directly lifting something verbatim.

Plagiarism is also writing something that is very similar. As if they lifted a passage, changed a few words or used a thesaurus to say great instead of good. But the essence is the same? That's still plagiarism. If you got an idea. A complete one and took it without attribute, it's plagiarism. I'm not referring to fandom tropes or common things like couple fought and fought and fell in love. Or couple reunites after twenty years apart, can they survive? But if someone wrote about a boy wizard who went off to school, met friends for the first time, and defeated a completely lame superwizard who died trying to kill the boy as a kid...the story might have different names and different scenes, but that is plagiarism.

as per definition (random house):

the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

(American Heritage)Literary theft. Plagiarism occurs when a writer duplicates another writer's language or ideas and then calls the work his or her own. Copyright laws protect writers' words as their legal property. To avoid the charge of plagiarism, writers take care to credit those from whom they borrow and quote.

In college, you don't just have to cite direct quotes, but also ideas as well.You can get academic probation for not citing ideas. You can fail. If I didn't come up with the idea of sense memory, but I wrote a passage about what I know of it in a paper, I still have to cite it because sense memory wasn't something I came up with. I had to learn that from somewhere. I was an English tutor for five years and I had to deal with people being sent to me to learn this every single semester.

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auctasinistra
2009-08-16 03:05 pm UTC (link)

I'd be interested to see someone proving the kind of "plagiarism" we're talking about - we're talking about a premise or plot, which although one could call it an "idea," is not at all actionable legally or morally. You'd have to have a lot of very strong similarities to prove plagiarism without verbatim theft, which simply points to courts' realization that human beings can sometimes simultaneously get the same idea.

In college, you don't just have to cite direct quotes, but also ideas as well.

Of course, but we're talking about fiction here.

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